"The basic education system is called STEM: science, technology, engineering, and math. Our mission is to turn STEM into 'STEAM,' by adding the 'A' of arts into that."
So states Stevie Van Zandt, speaking to Music Times via Zoom from his colorful kitchen in Greenwich Village. The legendary E Street Band member and passionate activist is a colorful man in general — never one to shy away from expressing his opinions in his protest music, social media posts, autobiography Unrequited Infatuations, or interviews — and he's feeling especially open and energized after a recent special field trip to the Grammy Museum in Los Angeles. There, on April 5, 150 high school students attended an immersive rock 'n' roll history course presented by his nonprofit education organization, TeachRock.org.
Van Zandt launched TeachRock in 2002, after setting up frustrating and futile meetings in D.C. with both Ted Kennedy and Mitch McConnell about the then-new No Child Left Behind Act, to promote arts education in public schools and help students learn about history through music. And at a time when there is so much misinformation out there, and some of the darkest moments in history seem to be repeating themselves, he feels TeachRock's curriculum is needed more than ever.
"We're going backwards in a way I never thought possible. All these things have come back to haunt us. ... It really is quite a full circle here, and we better start being vigilant right now, and maybe start teaching civics in school again," the Springsteen guitarist and Rock & Roll Hall of Fame inductee says frankly. "It's shocking what's going on right now, and I feel responsible. Our generation did not fix things properly, and certainly not permanently."
But Little Steven does not think all is lost, because through his work with TeachRock, which has signed up more than 60,000 educators in 30,000 schools across U.S. and Europe, he has witnessed the principles of his 1960s flower-powered generation ("equality and democracy and freedom and liberation, the basics that we still adhere to in terms of our country's identity") being embraced by Generation Z. "I feel very hopeful about this new generation coming up, in terms of those ideals that are just basics for them, that we had to fight for — and are still fighting for," he says.
In the important, wide-ranging conversation below, available in both video and Q&A text form, Van Zandt talks at length about why TeachRock lessoms are so crucial ("There's nothing political about what we're doing; we're just telling it like it is"), the education and economic crises in this country, his hopes and fears for the new generation, how Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA" and his own song "I Am a Patriot" have been misunderstood, and why he's unsure if rock 'n' roll can still change the world.
Last week's TeachRock.org event at the Grammy Museum seemed pretty cool. I wish something like that existed for me when I was a kid going to school.
STEVIE VAN ZANDT: Yeah, I hear you. Me too, me too! I was a terrible student [in my teens].
Were you?
Oh, terrible! It's so ironic that I ended up with a curriculum. [laughs]
So, what made you want to start TeachRock and all the other educational initiatives you've backed over the years? Were you trying to compensate for something — like, "Let's have the next generation have a better experience than I had in school," that kind of thing?
Yeah, and it's also to make up for all the s--- I put my teachers through! We're trying to really focus on the teachers almost more than the students with this thing, because they've been having a really tough time with this generation. They're very different from previous generations, because they can get any answer they want on their device in 30 seconds. So, they need a reason to be there. ... The challenge as part of our curriculum was to create a methodology that would work for this generation that's just smarter than us, faster than us, and kind of living in the moment a bit more than any other generation. It's like the world started yesterday [for these kids], you know what I mean? It's a strange phenomenon going on. So, we decided, let's go to them, rather than dragging them to our [older generation's] sort of sensibility and sense of what we think they should know. Let's go to them and use the gifts that kids come with, which is curiosity and energy and their own taste and their own instincts and their own imagination. Up until now, we've kind of said, "Leave that outside, and we'll tell you what to think." We decided it's more important to teach kids how to think rather than what to think these days.
So, we basically start off with just saying, "Who's your favorite artist?" ... And they say Beyoncé, and we're like, "Well, Beyoncé comes from a woman named Aretha Franklin, and she lived in a place called Detroit." And we talk about Detroit. "And she comes from the gospel church." So, we talk about gospel church being involved with civil rights. And they stay interested — and they're interested because you're on their turf. They're in their comfort zone. Let's get 'em into a comfort zone, which just enables the teachers to teach them.
And we're very, very excited about the new program called Harmony [the Harmony Daily Student Wellness Program], which we are starting off in all the homerooms the first thing in the morning, like 20-30 minutes. We just get the kids to talk a little bit, because on top of the lack of arts that have been canceled throughout the entire public education system... there's also a real epidemic of loneliness and isolation and low self-esteem going on and lots of kids committing suicide and just feeling really alienated from each other — partly because of technology, I think. We're kind of overcoming that by this Harmony program, which all we do is get them talking: "What's your name? Where'd your name come from? What's your ethnic background? Any problems at home? What's going on? What do you want to be when you grow up? How do you see the world?" Just getting them talking to each other. And the teachers are coming up to us saying, "Man, this has made an enormous difference."
I really admire what you're doing, because a lot of Boomers might look at Gen Z and be quick to dismiss them, without realizing how different things are for kids today. A lot of your peers only see things through the lens of how they grew up, but you actually try to put yourself in young people's shoes. Where does that come from?
I guess because I'm in the middle of it, I can see it so clearly. I don't know. I thought our generation gap from the '60s would be the biggest generation gap ever in history. I mean, we were at war with our parents. It was ugly. Honestly, it was a terrible, terrible time. We were very different from our parents in terms of our consciousness where [our parents thought] the government is always right, didn't question the government. It was the post-World War II generation, and we were just questioning everything and playing rock 'n' roll and doing drugs and growing our hair long, and we were embarrassing our parents forever. But I think this generation gap going on right now is even bigger, because as different as we [Boomers] were from our parents, we were kind of physically the same. And I'm convinced at this point that the young generation coming up is physically different. I think their brains are starting to be physically different from ours. I know it sounds crazy. But all of a sudden you see 5-year-old, 6-year-old kids working computers and stuff, and I've still got the "12 o'clock" blinking on my f---ing TV!
So, we have to deal with this, and the national education bureaucracy is just too slow to adjust to what's going on right now. That's what I've observed. And I'm like, "Man, we've got to do something, or we're going to lose this whole generation." Because they're just wondering what they're doing in that classroom right now. They need really significant, compelling curation, on top of somebody understanding that they will be interested in history if it seems relevant to them. You've got to give them something they can use now. There's only "right now" for this generation. It's what I call teaching in the present tense. Don't say, "Learn this now and maybe someday you'll use it." They don't give a f--- about the Napoleonic Wars or whatever.
You said we're going to lose this generation if we don't act. What are your biggest fears for Gen Z?
Well, my No. 1 one fear, and it's already happening, is the dropout rate, which is close to 50 percent in the poor neighborhoods. And then 50 percent of those kids that drop out end up — guess where? In the criminal justice system. Those numbers are gigantic and should be intolerable by some country calling themselves "civilized." Statistics show that if a kid likes one single teacher or one single class, they'll come to school. So, we want to be that class.
It's like Welcome Back, Kotter and the Sweathogs! The Sweathogs stayed in school because of Mr. Kotter. That's my Gen X reference.
And that's a very accurate one! [laughs] We hope if they graduate high school, there's no guarantees, but at least they got a shot. Statistics show that kids just do much better if they graduate high school, at least. So, my fear is that we're not paying attention here. We're not paying attention to what's going on, and we need to adjust for this generation significantly.
It's weird to me that this is even a political issue. There are three things that get politicized that I don't think should be: education, healthcare, and climate change. No matter what party you belong to or if you consider yourself conservative or liberal, we all have to live on this planet, we all have to go to the doctor, and we all have to go to school.
I must say in fairness, [TeachRock has] not run into any problems. We haven't run into any pushback from anybody — red state, blue state. We're not political. There's nothing political about what we're doing; we're just telling it like it is. But yeah, the biggest mystery from what you just said, and I agree 100 percent, is how did the environment become political? That's what I'll never understand. Don't we breathe in the same air, and don't these people care about their children or grandchildren and the fact that our air is poisoned? I never use the words "global warming." I use the word "poison." Who's in favor of poison, raise your hand! The air is poisoned, our food is poisoned, and our water is poisoned. We should all be worried about that, but for some reason... it's just bizarre. I've never quite figured that one out.
Your 1983 solo song "I Am a Patriot" is a part of TeachRock's curriculum. That word, "patriot," has been misconstrued over the years. What did being a patriot mean to you when sang it then, and what does it mean to you now?
When I wrote it, I thought, "This is the worst it's ever going to be," during the Reagan era. Yeah, it's a word that has been co-opted and should not belong to any political party. I'm against the entire political party system — that's one thing, and probably the only thing, I share with George Washington. We have that in common. But basically, we are the only country in the world formed with ideas. Every other country had basically a monoculture — common culture, common language, religion, customs. We're the only country ever formed by ideas. And they really were just the seeds of ideas, which we're still working on. The Founding Fathers, there were only a few of them, actually, that were truly enlightened, but they were able to plant some seeds in the very bizarre circumstance of the time, and they were quite brilliant in their way. Obviously there were flaws in the Constitution, flaws that remain to this day, but the ideals, the best of those ideas, is something that we can really be proud of. Equality. Democracy. Those kinds of basics that we're still working on, unfortunately. But that's what being a patriot means to me. It means adhering to those ideals that our country was started with and that we still are still working on living up to. It has nothing to do with left-wing, right-wing, and certainly not the Republican party.
The right-wing have just co-opted the term, and we let them get away with it. And I'm very pissed off at my brothers and sisters at Sirius Satellite Radio. I was the first person to bring original content there, and I'm the only one there with three channels. And they have a left-wing channel and a right-wing channel, and the right-wing channel is called the Patriot Channel. And that really pisses me off. I bring it up all the time, and someday they'll change it! But it has just been co-opted completely. And so, people feel they need to wave the flag constantly, and some of these mindless people really don't understand what America's all about anymore. They need to wave the flags to remember what country they're in, I guess. But meanwhile, the true meaning of the word has to do with the ideas and ideals of our country. That's how I see it.
Speaking of misunderstanding songs, and the Reagan era, I must get your thoughts this year's 40th anniversary of "Born in the USA." That's definitely been co-opted in ways that you and Bruce did not anticipate or intend.
Yeah, they tried! I mean, Reagan tried to use it in his campaign, and we stopped them. It shows that sometimes people aren't really paying much attention to the details! They caught the title, but then just imposed their own sort of story on it. Look, I can't complain too much, because probably the misunderstanding of that song probably sold a couple extra million records! [laughs] So, I'm kind of more forgiving about this because the first 10 million records were probably "misunderstood." But it's a wonderful song. I was very proud to support the Vietnam vets; very few people were doing that back then. We did, I think, the first concert of support for Vietnam Veterans of America. I had friends who [fought in Vietnam] and came back and people were spitting on them. It was just insanity going on back then, blaming the soldiers for a government policy. ... I was very, very proud of that [song], and Bruce's decision to do that, and that song comes from that sensibility.
Since we're talking about the Vietnam era, I expected there would've been a more permanent positive change to come out of the 1960s' youthquake. We had a huge generation of hippies on the frontlines protesting, breaking away from their parents, seemingly starting a revolution of "peace and love." Do you have any thoughts about how that much of that '60s generation got complacent and aren't doing the kind of activism you're doing?
It's funny you should bring that up, because that was exactly the subject of the first song on my first album. "Lyin' in a Bed of Fire" is about, that precise, exact scenario. We were going to change the world. It was the birth of consciousness. We were different. We were better. There was a better way to live. There was a better way to think. Let's be more global, not so narrow-minded, etc., etc. What happened? That's exactly the question I ask in that song. I mean, we could probably discuss what happened for a couple of days; I don't even know how to make this into soundbites.
But the beginning with the right-wing... let's call it "conservative," back when conservatives were actually conservative, as opposed to now when they're just a psychotic religious cult. My father was a Barry Goldwater Republican, so I understood that entire thing. That's where the original conservatism more or less comes from, the original conservatism that Reagan was part of, and Nixon — although those two guys are the reason why the problems began, by letting the Christian nationalists into the process, into the White House, and they've never left. So, it was Nixon and then Reagan. It really destroyed true conservatism — which, let me remind everybody, means "mind your own business," OK? That's what "conservative" means, not "look who's sleeping with who" or the nonsense that's going on with being against women's rights and everything else. But [conservatives] realized that they were losing the PR war, so they started buying up the media. That was sort of the beginning of the end of the new world. The media conglomerate, the media mergers and control of the media, became an issue, and which led all the way to Fox News and the other anti-American bulls--- that we've got to put up with, who unfortunately have an enormous audience, like half the country.
... But anyway, basically people just got tired. Among the other factors we were talking about, the media monopoly and the corporatization, they beat the s--- out of us. People got tired. [The '60s] was a wild time. I mean, there were protests about everything, Vietnam, we had assassinations, we had gay rights, women's rights. People don't realize that the ERA, the Equal Rights Amendment for women, never got passed, which is just embarrassing. Now I am seeing the result of it with this completely anti-women, psychotic, Christian, nationalist Supreme Court, which in my wildest nightmares I thought could never happen. But anyway, we kind of got co-opted. At some point people just kind of sold out and said, "Well, we tried!" And we did, and things did change a little bit. And those ideals still exist. To tell you the truth, I'm seeing those ideals in this generation, the new generation. They don't understand prejudice. They're like, "Who cares if somebody's gay or not? Who cares if somebody's Black or brown?" They don't get that, and they're like, "How are you ignoring the environment?" They're really pissed off about that. So, in a funny way, maybe it skipped a couple generations! But I feel very hopeful about this new generation coming up, in terms of those ideals that are just basics for them, that we had to fight for — and are still fighting for, let's face it.
I have a theory that Gen X was raised to be complacent because they were taught that the worst things that happened in the past — Hitler, slavery, women not being allowed to vote, Black people not being allowed to drink from the same water fountains or attend the same schools as white people etc. — were very much things of the past. Like, everything was "fixed" and better now, and we didn't need to be so vigilant anymore.
Fascinating, fascinating. I think that's an interesting theory and yeah, it makes sense because they're being raised by the Boomers, right? And certainly, there has been progress in all those areas, without a doubt. But fixed? No, not quite fixed. "Improved" would be the term. Now we're just taking a gigantic step backwards, for the first time in my life. It's been a rocky road, but pretty much an arc of progress ever since World War II. A little bump in the road here and there — a little Vietnam here, a little assassination there — but pretty much up until Trump. And now we're going backwards in a way I never thought possible. All these things have come back to haunt us. Black people being stopped voting, women losing their rights, and even Hitler is back. It really is quite a full circle here, and we better start being vigilant right now, and maybe start teaching civics in school again. ... It's shocking what's going on right now, and I feel responsible. Our generation did not fix things properly, and certainly not permanently. It wasn't just Generation X taking things for granted. Everybody kind of did, thinking that this stuff's not going to come back — and boom, here it is.
We've had modern-day artists that have recorded protest songs and made statements since around 2016, when things were really starting to come to a head, but I thought there'd be a more of a renaissance of protest music, like we had with the classic protest songs of the '60s, '70s, and even the '80s. Do you have any theories as to why that hasn't happened?
Yeah, I do. I had to have a theory, because I was asked about it when I came back into the business — which I didn't expect to do, by the way — with my last two [solo] albums. All I did was political music [before], and suddenly I wasn't doing it anymore, so I was asked constantly about this. I said I was particularly political in the '80s because everything I was talking about was very well-hidden, way behind the scenes. You had this grandfatherly, happy cowboy, Ronald Reagan, that everybody loved, and an entire criminal organization going on behind them that people didn't know about. And there were a lot of pockets around the world where terrible crime was going on — sometimes with our assistance, our tax dollars. And so, I felt the need to expose that stuff.
Now, Trump and this regime, this wannabe Fourth Reich, is basically bragging about putting kids in cages to stop immigration. I mean, what is there to talk about? They're bragging about the crimes at this point. It is wide open. They're not keeping anything hidden. ... They're engaged in this white supremacist, just anti-American mission, and they're open about it. I mean, I've seen [Steve] Bannon speak at fascist rallies in Italy and France, and he's like, "Wear your prejudice on your sleeve. That's where it belongs." There just doesn't seem to be anything to really talk about anymore. It is just quite obvious. And you're either on one side or the other. And no song is going to change that, unfortunately. The concept of bringing some consciousness or transferring some awareness or consciousness to people, it's just over.
You have actually said, many times, that you believe rock 'n' roll can change the world. Do you not believe that anymore?
I think it did, to some extent. I think all of these ideals exist in a bigger way because of rock 'n' roll. I think the idea of liberation of the individual exists because of rock 'n' roll, and the communication between people in different countries directly — the direct communication, as opposed to speaking through our governments, exists through rock 'n' roll, soul, and popular music. I think a lot of things did get accomplished, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility of popular music once again rising to some occasion. I thought there'd be some kind of environmental movement, for instance, to help out about poor Greta [Thunberg] in Sweden! But it's a strange, fragmented world. As global as we are right now, at the same time, it is kind of more isolated in some ways. Also, fascism, this white supremacist movement, religious extremists, they are all over the world. I've been around the world four times in the last five, six years, and it's everywhere. If it's not pure fascism, it's some kind of religious extremism. So, there's a bit of a circle-of-wagons kind of mentality going on here that discourages that kind of communal, mass-shared experience. I think right now everybody's desperately trying to hold on to whatever they've got, so it seems beyond the help of a song at the moment. I mean, we're going to see what happens as we go through this era, but for the first time, democracy is on the decline.
I think we're in some kind of permanent recession, which is affecting everything. I think the fact that everybody is working harder than ever and getting less back, the lack of value in our currency — and I mean that globally — is starting to affect things in a very, very serious way. I don't think our basic economic system works anymore. It is not working for enough people, let's put it that way. So, what happens is everybody — in every country, virtually — is disappointed with their lives. If you really question them, "Are you happier now than you were 10 years ago, 20 years ago?" — everybody will feel more depressed. They'll feel more anxiety. They'll feel like they're working harder for less. And that is a global problem that I've seen in every country. Then what happens is along comes the demagogues and they say, "I know you are unhappy. I know you're disappointed. But guess what? It's not your fault! It's the Black guy's fault. It's the other religion's fault. It's the other. It's the immigrant, the different-colored guy, the different-religious guy. It's everybody but you." And people are like, "Oh, that's a relief! That has relieved me of my obligation to pay attention and change the world for the better. I can just kind of sit back and follow his demagogue and he's going to lead us to the promised land." This is going on wherever you look. And so, I think we're kind of past the point of that kind of cultural coming together to change things, at least at the moment. I'm not saying it can't happen again. But I just encourage people, don't worry about the world right now. Take care of your neighborhood. Take care of your family. Take care of your friends. Think small right now.
To end things on an optimistic note, you spend a lot of time with young people, and they're not complacent. They're interested, they're engaged, and they're also realistic about the future they're inheriting and want to do something to change it. What positive takeaways do you have from spending time with students? They're the generation that will eventually lead this country and the world.
You see it without having to look too far or too hard. You just want the education process to do two things, basically. You want to instill the ideals that make us who we are, those basics of equality and democracy and freedom and liberation, the basics that we still adhere to in terms of our country's identity. You want those reinforced right now so that they recognize when it's not happening. ... The other thing education is to discover and encourage a child's inclinations. ... Let's have all the options open for kids to express themselves as early as possible and discover their inclinations, and then encourage them and support those inclinations. I think that's what education is for. And just at this point, making sure that they understand that the way things are going right now is not really right, but that's OK because it's still fixable. It ain't over yet. It ain't over. We're just in a little bit of trouble right now, that's all. And it's going to be up to them to fix it, let's face it.
This Q&A has been edited for brevity and clarity. Watch Stevie Van Zandt's full video conversation with Music Times in the split-screen video above.
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